思瑟 桃勒絲

LZH： Since I believe people have no idea about your work in China， I will ask you some basic questions. How would you describe yourself？ As an artist？

ST： I call myself a professional ‘in-betweener’， because the sense of smell is universal and there is a world full of smells， and there’s a whole world to teach how to smell. Since I work all over the place， it’s hard to limit it to just… one… you know， niche， or a small niche category like art or creativity…. all the other things I do are as important as what I do in a creative context– so my most preferred professional title would be， a professional in-betweener.

LZH： That’s cool， because you work a lot on yourself， on your own sense of smell； and you also work on other peoples’ sense of fear. So what do you think of this？ I mean， as an artist， in a way you go in one direction - into the direction of discovering yourself - but in other ways you go another direction…

ST： I don’t see myself as an artist， to get back to where we started， but rather as a curious human being. As long as there’re footsteps on the moon， the sky isn’t the limit for curiosity.

One of my main projects has been to look into smell molecules at all levels： in relation to the human body； and， on a much bigger scale， in cities， like a microcosm of humanity， you know. And the whole oeuvre of my research on the human body started off with myself， asking “who am I beyond the way I look？”

I have a smell ID as unique as my fingerprints， so why don’t I know about it？ Why don’t I appreciate it？ And， what if I started to use that as my kind of image to the world？ You know， instead of sending out appearances of visual images.

So I started to collect my own smell， with the help of advanced technology， and then break down my smell ID to several molecules - as much as I could with the tools I had at my disposal. And with that result， the outcome of that analysis， I reproduced my own body smell with the help of chemical components… As you know I have a laboratory containing some 3000 chemical components， with which I try to reproduce the smells that surround me， smells that are out there in the world I’m participating in.

And then the second part of that body project， the “body smell-scape” project， was that I got commissioned by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 2004-6 to investigate the sense capacities of new technology. In my work， as you know， the technology is not so much in the result， but rather in the process： the way I work， the way I obtain my smells， the way I reproduce my smell， is where high-tech is important. Nevertheless， the way I presents the results of my work is also pretty advanced technology - but it’s not technology in our usual definition. It’s like invisible technology… the technology I used to put replicated sweat on to was very complicated， for example.

Anyway， the MIT project was interested in seeing if I could smell that people were anxious. And this was during the Bush government， when the whole notion of terrorism was all over the US press， and everybody was anxious and paranoid. Whatever border you crossed， these were the issues. So I worked with 21 men that suffered a serious phobia towards other human beings – there were different reasons， some racial， but all kinds of sophisticated， complicated reasons， etc. These patients were provided by several psychiatrists and psychologists all over the world， from China to California， and from Norway to South Africa.

The reason I chose men in this project was not because of statistical reasons， but simply because men sweat more， and I was keen to get results as quickly as possible， so this project was dedicated more or less to men. So these 21 men wore a device of mine， that collected their body sweat whenever they had an attack of fear. The device would send me the information overnight， which I would analyse and then replicate with chemical components， so in the end you had reproduced sweat from these anxious men.

Then I contained this fluid， reproduced sweat， with the nanotechnology called micro-encapsulation. This allows smell to be packed in nano-units， and I developed a binding substance that allowed me to connect an adhesive to the binder. So I was able to put it onto surfaces， let’s say a wall， or I could print it on paper. In presenting of the fear project， the wall became metaphorical to skin： so you could touch a person’s skin - that is， the wall - and you released the person’s sweat. This is how I used that medium to show my invisible message.

LZH： I think that’s a visible message. You know， a lot of time when we talk about human beings as individuals， we imply their skin color， their wearing a certain kind of dress， their behaviour - but some of these are constructed by society， so it’s not really“you”.

I think it’s very important nowadays that we know that we have particular DNA， and we have particular smells： we have something that’s not transferable and can’t be copied， and I think that’s something very interesting…

ST： I mean， in most parts of the world - I’m not so sure about how it is in China - but in most parts of the world we are born to interact around the place with our hands， and so we communicate our smells to society with perfume ads. The marketing made use of whatever our physiology left behind， and smell is never an issue in terms of everyday conversation. We cover up our body， our smell， and we are covering up every smell in our surroundings： we sanitise， we deodorise， we sterilise everything.. Because we think we protect ourselves like this. But we are reducing so much information， by removing so much information which I think exists in smells. Smell provides you with information that you don’t see， but nevertheless it’s very important information in context.

LZH： If we are too much blended into this multi-layered information， smell， or whatever， by living in society， that also triggers issues， these collective issues today： being involved in that society， and being yourself.

ST： The fact is， the metabolism or the body’s hardware - I call the senses the “software” -they are working independently of all this.

The tricky thing is that some of the processing happens consciously， and some happens unconsciously. In the case of the nose， this process happens unconsciously in most humans， but also… one fact here， which is very， very important， is that the nose knows everything long before the eyes ever start to process. But since these processes happen subconsciously， we’re not aware of what the nose is finding out， you know.

In my case， that’s different， because I decided to be conscious when I smell， so I can program my brain to say： “No， the nose is doing a job and the eyes are relaxing”， “No， now the nose and eyes are doing the processing， and ears are relaxing.” So I started to use my senses like… like on the computer I use different kinds of software for different purposes. And that is so amazing， it reveals qualities in life I never knew existed.

What it does， is that it brings back the whole playfulness which I think gets lost when we grow up， you know what I mean -this ability to understand the world from the point of view of play， and game， and joy… it has somehow become lost in all the serious issues we are confronted with everyday.

By bringing back the senses to where they’re supposed to be， in the beginning， one gets some amazing qualities back on track， you know.

LZH： You also work with the smell of the kitchen， and the smell of WWI， and the smell of someone’s mouth. For me that’s also very extreme， it’s a very personal kind of experience in the public area， especially when it’s related to culture and art. So what is really being triggered there？ People barely see things， but they do smell and react…what kind of reactions do people have when you showcase yourself？

ST： With smell people will react immediately， whereas with images， you go to rendering process in a part of your brain…oh， do I know this？ Is this familiar？ Have I seen it？ Do I like it？ Do I not？ And then you have the subconscious and you have a kind of emotional attachment. With smell you immediately think something， you are like - oh！ Got the touch -be it positive or negative. I took to be free in my research- I might have a Phd in chemistry， at the end of the day I might become a scientist， but， because smell is so much about life， breathing is my topic， I thought “it’s perverse to sit in a white square lab and do all the experiments with mice and rats”.

So， since at the end of the day， what I’m concerned with is humanity and life， I decided to use the creative world as my platform to show my research and to ask my questions. And by doing that， I’ve gained the freedom of subjectivity. In science， you play as “we” and you have to be objective： you write the paper， you hope somebody publishes your paper， and you go on and on… while in my case， I use myself to ask questions.

Thus， my research is placed in the context of art and design： generally speaking， the“creative world”， the platform of creativity， because nobody asks what I study as long as I deliver. And I have the right to be subjective， and have the right to ask some questions that I would never ask in science. But in this case I ask as Sissel， but not as “we”.

So that’s it， I’ve always been trying things out on myself before I try it out on somebody else.

LZH： Do you consider yourself like - nowadays a very popular “identity” - an activist？

ST： No， I characterise myself as a sophisticated human being…

LZH： So you participate in the society in a very different way？

ST： Yes， I engage in society. I am not an activist at all， I am not a provocateur in terms of the definition of provocation. I’m provoking with my work yes， but that’s not for the purposes of provocation to make …disturbance. It is happening anyway， but that is not the main intention.

LZH： I understand your way is very scientific： you do a lot of research， you go to many places.

ST： The process is the product. The process is the most important part of my work： what you’ll see， what you hear， or what you read about…is just a long journey. My final conclusion is just a micro statement compared to all the materials which are there. So bits and bytes drop here and there， some in the creative world， science world， commercial world…the main research， which has to do with the nose and chemistry，and smell， is endless. It’s like a train that will never stop - you might stop to get petrol or food， but it goes on and on and on…

LZH： Do you consider yourself more …subjectively working or objectively working？

ST： I can only be subjective， and I decided to take that position. Otherwise I would have been a hardcore scientist， and super objective. In the subject of science you are not allowed to be subjective at all： you personally might ask a question， but you have to operate and to augment the research， not only for your own point of looking， but more generally. Yeah - that’s what science is.

Art just has to be subjective， and I need that freedom. Because there’re so many unanswered questions， where the is nose is concerned. And I want to answer them by doing， and having that freedom that the creative world provides me with.

LZH： I remember very strongly in， about 2008， when we showed your work， in MUDAC， And I remember that a lot of people got offended immediately， and they were actually people who work in the field of art. So I was quite surprised because I think normally people give each other a kind of space， a kind of understanding， and somehow in the art world， there is no such…“compromise”.

ST： The art world is very stereotypical！ Maybe it has changed now…that was 2006， one was in 2008.. it’s a long time ago， the world has become a little more tolerant since then and it goes very quickly. I’m becoming a bit more famous so people know who I am， but， still… I had a big， big project in the Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo， so they invited me to do smell work. They knew my work， and I was happy to participate. I went to Tokyo， and after two days， they started to complain：

“Oh Ms Tolaas， it smells in your room.”“You must be kidding… you think I came across half the world to produce a work that doesn’t smell when my work really is about smell？ Why did you invite me？“Oh yes， but I think we have to give people masks to enter your room…”“I’m sorry？”

Yeah， there were all these issues… to make a long story short， I went back to Berlin， and after two weeks， they called me and said：“Ah Ms Tolaas， your room is smelly， it’s still smelly.” I said， “Ok， you call the guy who next to me， he had a big， big screen with thousands and millions of pixels， do you call him to say there’s too much to look at？” and I never heard back from them.

It’s not only about the administration or the curators， it’s also the institutions that are not updated enough for the time they’re operating in. You’re dealing with a lot of old fashioned institutions： “Art is to look at， art is maybe to hear but you have to be silent， you have to have headphones， you should this and that， you shouldn’t touch art” …you know all this conservative stuff！

S o i f y o u a r e s o courageous to invite someone like me， at least you have to prepare the institution for what is coming！ But most of these institutions in the art world， they are not able to do that， for whatever reason.

L Z H ： I t h i n k that’s a very i n t e r e s t i n g question， the point you raised. As I understand， there are a lot of institutions- f r o m m y p o i n t o f view – that are supposed to be standing on a position of neutrality – making a bridge for art and truth to the audience， and bringing points from the audience back to art so that people can find ground for communication. But nowadays there are so many questions and“obligations” from the institutions… they do fulfill a lot but they become censors.

I had a similar experience in England， in 2009， people from the institution thought the art presented was too brutal， too bloody， too much killing… we always have to confront this kind of situation and find our way out. As you said， there’s more tolerance in this， but that triggers the issues in the art system - the system needs to change， but how are we going to change it？ I’m also deeply impressed by the way you’re telling me： “Let’s change the world”. Let’s say， “l(fā)et’s change the system”， but how can we do it？

ST： You have to make your own system. It’s tough to change the existing one， so you make your own - that’s one part of the solution - you know， otherwise it will take too much time or cost too much money – there are enough people around who are willing to do that. In the general art world， it’s so commercial - it’s all about … it’s becoming like the new IT bag. All the other…amazing art and creativity going on， it’s hard to have a chance to survive in that commercial context.

So I mean， it depends what you want to do. If you want to go on with an ambitious project and to put it in huge institutions like museums， it’s always problematic. I think in general， the MoMa is not as important as it has been， but they still use the argument： “Oh we don’t have any money， but you should be happy to be exhibited at MoMA.” That destroyed one of my most important pieces- the smellscape in Berlin， at MoMA， which they had for free. It is devastating， but that’s exactly what’s happening…they are not prepared for the smell.

Some of the audience wanted to smell， and the work fell down and got destroyed. MoMa said “You should be happy to be at MoMa”， I mean， be happy to be destroyed at MoMA？

It’s very often the case. More and more young people started to do their own presentations， their own way of showing their interest and their work， so I don’t see that as a problem. I am not so familiar with how it is in China but I have a feeling that more and more alternate situations are popping up. People you introduced me to - they are much more tolerant and much more creative and curious about how to present what for which kind of purpose， not just for the mainstream… I think it’s changing. I always find a way， somehow it’s strange， and I never really care so much.

LZH： I think it’s important， we can’t just tie ourselves up. We always have to reach the general public and communicate with other people. What you do with the kids？ And to bring your work into the context of Olympics…it’s always reaching to and bridging a much broader public.

ST： Also most of all， my works concern children. I mean， generally， people are reactive： like I said before， they react to smell so quickly， and a lot of people to have fun. My experience is， wherever I do workshops with smells， be it for kindergartens， 6-12， or Mercedez CEOs， nobody leaves the lab without a big smile on their face.

The more extreme the smells are， the more fun people have. And that tells it all， having people getting upset about my work is because it’s so direct that sometimes people react immediately. If you get upset about a picture， they can at least leave the room and get reactive on the street. In my case they are reacting immediately， ‘cos smell is so quick. And that， I think， is a favour of smell， getting it out and moving on.

LZH： I think your works… it doesn’t matter what kind of smell it is， it could be soap or cheese， but people do share it with their original human taste or sensors.

ST： Yes， it’s touching， and smell is emotional. Also people are really … since smell is so much related to one’s personal history， it reminds you of things： it triggers memory， it triggers the past - and these are qualities， these can be things - in both ways quality -that disturb or make you happy.

When I showed my smell project in Korea， I had very old man who was crying in front of the wall…and my translator told me that last time he smelt human sweat was during the Japanese-Korean war， and he was so touched by the piece. His grandson asked me， “Sissel， could you send my great-grandfather a small bottle of this sweat？ He would be very， very happy.” And I did it， and I got this very amazing email back about how much his great-grandfather liked it. You know， these are small moments when you think “mission accomplished”.

Like， in MIT， one woman was passing by the wall， everyday on the way to work. And she was so obsessed by the scent， she was kissing the wall every morning for 3 months.

So sometimes the wall had red lipstick， some times it had violet or pink， and I spoke to her， and she said： “every time I stood in front of this guy （the abstract， invisible wall）， he’s calling.” So she got a kind of relationship to this “person”. And you had other people who got disgusted - “oh， this is awful！ Body sweat！”

Again， because we have no clue， we don’t have a chance to find out what the smell is. Especially in the US， where “smell” is kind of taboo， and often something to be too aware of. You have to deodorise everything. I mean…since my works are mostly contextual and site-specific， and sometimes some works travel and expand， or they’re displayed differently due to site conditions， it’s very very interesting to see where the work has been found or where I conduct my research. It’s very different if I make a work travel. LZH： You do your work in a very long time process， what’s y o u r m e t h o d behind it？ And w h a t m a k e s your interest continue with t h i s k i n d o f research？ ST： Since I use scientific models or methodology to find the result， I’m not just sitting around and doing abstract painting， or using metaphorical， abstract smells. So I can’t be sitting around and mixing smells， and saying：“Oh this is the sea…”“This is Berlin..” - that would be easy. I really pay lots of attention to the reality that I am in， and try to go beyond the surface with scientific tools to capture and make an image of the invisible… I make an image of the invisible， I analyse the invisible， and I reproduce the invisible. That’s a long process， and primarily the long process is because nobody has done it. I need to find possibilities to do this， and find sponsors who would help me to do it. It’s a lot of work to break down smells into thousands of chemical components - I mean， who want to do that for free？

For me it’s very important to do it like that and that’s the way I work. Sometimes a process can take a month， sometimes 2 weeks， sometimes 5 years…and with the city smellscape projects， they always took longer， because the cities were far away and I couldn’t stay there continuously…Also because I’m after smells that are there permanently， and to really assure yourself that it’s “permanent”， you have to visit the smell at different times of the day， different times of the year…it’s not just “grab something and to pretend that this is the case”.

I really try to precise， even from a subjective perspective. Sometime it’s long， sometimes it’s short， all depends. After all these years， I’ve slowly built up some reputation and collaborations， with amazing companies that facilitate me to work quick and efficiently， to get things done in speeds that I was dreaming about 10 years ago. We are doing Istanbul and I have 2.5 months： I’m supposed to find neighbourhoods， smells， in a month.

The company who supports me set up a lab in Tel Aviv， in the Middle East， to facilitate me to do fundamental research in a very complicated situation. These are qualities， and improvements of my working conditions - which are amazing.

Working in Detroit or Kansas City for 6 years is also down to that： I didn’t have time to go every month， it’s far away， and funding it… I wouldn’t say that to invite Sissel you need 6 years of planning. No， I can do it in a week. .if you have a million I’ll do it in a day， hahaha. I’ll turn the world upside down.

But the problem is…no， not the problem... I’ve been very keen on my life， and I want to contribute a better quality of life for everyone. That’s been the main drive of what I do， and I think about how I can achieve it， make people wake up， challenge people to use their bodies and senses in a different way， a more sophisticated way， or “proper”way. It’s not always related with money.

So I am now starting to see an opportunity to turn some of these amazing research works into commercial applications. To earn some fundamental money， that’s what I’m starting to do and that’s a completely direction for me. And it opens up completely new ways that I will approach my knowledge for different displays， in different institutions and locations， wherever the work is going to be shown.

I’ve worked with several hardwares and softwares， I’ve been making a lot of analog tools and this is fantastic. I never thought I would do it， I thought I was against the commercial world， but now the world is ready， and that’s what I say…I think the time is right now. I never had so m u c h r e q u e s t s i n m y l i f e a s m u c h a s I h a d i n l a s t a couple months. It’s cool.

I think we can start to change the world now， get ready to start， start in China.

LZH： We can do that， China is definitely the place for you.

ST： The world is divided， for me it’s not a negative thing. However， in the Western part of that world， including US， people are so spoiled， they just want to consume， and there’s no more showing any passion or enthusiasm towards anything.

Going to China， going to Russia， going to India and going to the Middle East is like a wake-up call for me. People are so curious， and enthusiastic， passionate for what you tell them， it’s amazing， and that makes one wants to do more， contribute more， develop more and be creative. The context you do thinking is so important for your thoughts！

So being in Berlin where creativity is the capital of the city， it becomes alibi of doing nothing.

What do you do？ I am creative？ I’m working on a project， what does project mean？ All these abstract words.. But if you go do Russia， “What you do？” “I am working on changing the world…” and people have ideas and they are doing it！

LZH： Different societies produce different attitudes， and I think a lot that if I continue do intellectual work， I could really produce something very solid.

ST： Absolutely， you need application， as long as you can combine it with some stuff， thoughts out there， your thoughts will also make sense.

LZH： Tell me more about your next action？

ST： Istanbul. Tel Aviv， and I’m doing these analog devices for Austria， I’m doing a project in London on the subject of Home， also another project in New York for the most innovative chemist of the year. I’m going to US for a week to do lots of talks. And I’m also doing a project in Geneva with dancers， in collaboration with Isabelle Luis…all stuff. And I’ll go to China.

LZH： One terrible question for you： how can you pass on your knowledge to younger generations？

ST： That’s easy， give me a situation I’ll transfer everything.

LZH： With your “hardware”？

ST： Not with my hardware： start with my own body.

If a young person comes to me， the first thing you have to go through is what to change in yourself.

LZH： Sissel， how did you start？

ST： I started with myself.

LZH： Where am I now？

ST： I’m working on you. Listen let’s be child again， let’s start to find out what the body can do， where are the censors， how do they work and how can they be absolutely maximal.

Then， that’s the first step. there’s unlimited possibilities.

LZH： That’s why you teach a lot in universities ST： For me education is investment to the future. You’ve got to transmit your knowledge for your future purposes， I do a lot of workshops and yeah， that’s it！

LZH：（我假設中國的讀者對你的作品還沒有太多了解，因此我會從較為基本的問題開始）

簡單介紹一下你的身份？

ST：我稱自己為一個職業(yè)的“中間人”，這個世界充滿了各種各樣的氣味，這個世界也應該教會人如何去聞這些氣味。我的工作內容和地點多種多樣，非常難以把自己局限在某種小眾的藝術或者創(chuàng)意領域里，換句話說，對我來說在其他領域所做的事情跟在藝術領域里做的是同等重要的。因此我最希望當的是一個“中間人”。

LZH：非常有趣，我知道你的大量作品是關于你自己的氣味的，你也創(chuàng)作關于他者的恐懼的氣味作品。那么作為一個藝術家，你如何看待這種自身的向度，和他人、社會向度之間的關系？

ST：回到我們最開始所說的，我不認為自己是一個藝術家，我是一個“好奇者”。既然月亮上能有了腳印，天空便不再能限制人的好奇。我的主要研究方向是對氣味分子的調查，尤其是它們如何聯系到人的身體。另一個研究方向則在更廣的城市維度，城市就像是“生命”的宏觀版本。簡單來說，我的作品從我自身出發(fā)，探討的是 “ 除了可見的外表，我還是什么？”

就像我的指紋一樣，我的氣味也是獨一無二的身份標簽，但為何我并不知曉？為何我不懂得欣賞？如果我開始用氣味來投射這個世界而非視覺圖像，會有什么樣的結果？

抱著這個念頭，通過現代科技支持，我開始采集自己的氣味。使用手頭能有的科學工具，我盡可能地把我的氣味（我的……